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	<title>Comments on: Torchwood : Children of Earth : The Aftermath</title>
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	<link>http://www.endofshow.com/2009/07/12/torchwood-children-of-earth-the-aftermath/</link>
	<description>Television with its insides turned out</description>
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		<title>By: Jim</title>
		<link>http://www.endofshow.com/2009/07/12/torchwood-children-of-earth-the-aftermath/comment-page-1/#comment-2645</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 01:03:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.endofshow.com/?p=496#comment-2645</guid>
		<description>The backlash against the backlash seems to be just as strident doesn&#039;t it.

I am another person who probably won&#039;t have a lot of interest in a Season 4 of Torchwood and its not just because I won&#039;t see a bit of male kissing, although it was nice to see an openly gay relationship on our TV screens.  But even if there hadn&#039;t been a relationship between Jack and Ianto I still would be writing the same thing here.

My problem with the show is that now we have lost three of the main five characters in the show, characters that we liked and invested time in getting to know.  Very few show can remove 60% of their ensemble and survive.  Its why most other shows have at least 8 or 9 main characters so that a certain level of turnover can be achieved.

If Torchwood is going to continue in this mini-series format its not going to have time for us to get to know new characters, get to like them, laugh at them and understand them.  The mini-series format has to put the action and threat front and centre so the rest gets shoved to one side.  And with only two (and a half) characters left there&#039;s not enough there to build on.

I can say that I didn&#039;t have real emotional reaction to the climax of Episode 5 because I knew that there had to be some reason for bringing in Jack&#039;s daughter and grandson.  They weren&#039;t characters, they were plot devices and therefore it was obvious that one or the other was going to end up dead.  In fact it would have been far more emotional if Ianto had still been alive in Episode 5 so that he could watch Jack kill his grandson and possibly reject Jack because of it.  Now that would have been a great scene to watch and possibly to write.

Finally its terribly arrogant and insulting of Russell T Davies to say &quot;grow up&quot; or &quot;go read poetry&quot; to people like me who don&#039;t agree with his choices.  Its seem to me that its Davies who has the childish attitude of &quot;you&#039;ll play my way or I&#039;m taking my ball home with me&quot;.  

Children of Earth had some terrible plot loopholes and a really poor resolution.  Indeed since Captain Jack came up with the answer in around five minutes at the end, one wonders why he didn&#039;t take that five minutes earlier on to think about it.  Davies is not such a God that he can afford to be so arrogant to a significant proportion of the show&#039;s fanbase.

But roll on Season 4 of the Jack and Gwen (and Rhys) show.  Maybe we&#039;ll have the ever irritating Martha Jones or the even more irritating Mickey Clarke, Doctor Who cast off&#039;s to watch.  That&#039;ll be fun won&#039;t it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The backlash against the backlash seems to be just as strident doesn&#8217;t it.</p>
<p>I am another person who probably won&#8217;t have a lot of interest in a Season 4 of Torchwood and its not just because I won&#8217;t see a bit of male kissing, although it was nice to see an openly gay relationship on our TV screens.  But even if there hadn&#8217;t been a relationship between Jack and Ianto I still would be writing the same thing here.</p>
<p>My problem with the show is that now we have lost three of the main five characters in the show, characters that we liked and invested time in getting to know.  Very few show can remove 60% of their ensemble and survive.  Its why most other shows have at least 8 or 9 main characters so that a certain level of turnover can be achieved.</p>
<p>If Torchwood is going to continue in this mini-series format its not going to have time for us to get to know new characters, get to like them, laugh at them and understand them.  The mini-series format has to put the action and threat front and centre so the rest gets shoved to one side.  And with only two (and a half) characters left there&#8217;s not enough there to build on.</p>
<p>I can say that I didn&#8217;t have real emotional reaction to the climax of Episode 5 because I knew that there had to be some reason for bringing in Jack&#8217;s daughter and grandson.  They weren&#8217;t characters, they were plot devices and therefore it was obvious that one or the other was going to end up dead.  In fact it would have been far more emotional if Ianto had still been alive in Episode 5 so that he could watch Jack kill his grandson and possibly reject Jack because of it.  Now that would have been a great scene to watch and possibly to write.</p>
<p>Finally its terribly arrogant and insulting of Russell T Davies to say &#8220;grow up&#8221; or &#8220;go read poetry&#8221; to people like me who don&#8217;t agree with his choices.  Its seem to me that its Davies who has the childish attitude of &#8220;you&#8217;ll play my way or I&#8217;m taking my ball home with me&#8221;.  </p>
<p>Children of Earth had some terrible plot loopholes and a really poor resolution.  Indeed since Captain Jack came up with the answer in around five minutes at the end, one wonders why he didn&#8217;t take that five minutes earlier on to think about it.  Davies is not such a God that he can afford to be so arrogant to a significant proportion of the show&#8217;s fanbase.</p>
<p>But roll on Season 4 of the Jack and Gwen (and Rhys) show.  Maybe we&#8217;ll have the ever irritating Martha Jones or the even more irritating Mickey Clarke, Doctor Who cast off&#8217;s to watch.  That&#8217;ll be fun won&#8217;t it.</p>
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		<title>By: Inigo</title>
		<link>http://www.endofshow.com/2009/07/12/torchwood-children-of-earth-the-aftermath/comment-page-1/#comment-2642</link>
		<dc:creator>Inigo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Jul 2009 07:40:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.endofshow.com/?p=496#comment-2642</guid>
		<description>Actually, saying it&#039;s not well researched is a fair criticism of the article, particularly on a site which presents itself as a journalistic one. The author presents the opinion of a segment of fandom as if it were the opinion of all fandom. For example, regarding Ianto&#039;s death, she writes &quot;the viewers reacted strongly,&quot; using &quot;the&quot; instead of &quot;some.&quot; She has no basis on which to estimate the size of that part of fandom who were angry. Simple research around sites outside of LJ and Facebook would have shown her that there were many fans, not newbies but fans who have also watched from the start, who did not feel anger at the death of Ianto. She refers specifically to the one tweeter to James Moran who was clearly unbalanced, something she fails to mention. She picks and chooses comments from a post James made on his blog that he specifically said: &quot;Please feel free to pass this on, I encourage you to do so, to make my position clear to everyone - but you must include the link to the full post here: http://jamesmoran.blogspot.com/2009/07/stepping-back.html.&quot; This author did not link to his post.

The twittering to James comprised death threats and threats of self-harm over the fate of a fictionaly character. The complaints about the author here are about journalistic intregrity in the real world. It&#039;s neither hypocritical nor a case of the pot calling the kettle black to suggest that this is a poorly written article.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, saying it&#8217;s not well researched is a fair criticism of the article, particularly on a site which presents itself as a journalistic one. The author presents the opinion of a segment of fandom as if it were the opinion of all fandom. For example, regarding Ianto&#8217;s death, she writes &#8220;the viewers reacted strongly,&#8221; using &#8220;the&#8221; instead of &#8220;some.&#8221; She has no basis on which to estimate the size of that part of fandom who were angry. Simple research around sites outside of LJ and Facebook would have shown her that there were many fans, not newbies but fans who have also watched from the start, who did not feel anger at the death of Ianto. She refers specifically to the one tweeter to James Moran who was clearly unbalanced, something she fails to mention. She picks and chooses comments from a post James made on his blog that he specifically said: &#8220;Please feel free to pass this on, I encourage you to do so, to make my position clear to everyone &#8211; but you must include the link to the full post here: <a href="http://jamesmoran.blogspot.com/2009/07/stepping-back.html." rel="nofollow">http://jamesmoran.blogspot.com/2009/07/stepping-back.html.</a>&#8221; This author did not link to his post.</p>
<p>The twittering to James comprised death threats and threats of self-harm over the fate of a fictionaly character. The complaints about the author here are about journalistic intregrity in the real world. It&#8217;s neither hypocritical nor a case of the pot calling the kettle black to suggest that this is a poorly written article.</p>
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		<title>By: Siobhan</title>
		<link>http://www.endofshow.com/2009/07/12/torchwood-children-of-earth-the-aftermath/comment-page-1/#comment-2640</link>
		<dc:creator>Siobhan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Jul 2009 00:22:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.endofshow.com/?p=496#comment-2640</guid>
		<description>WoW! All you having a go about this article are as bad as the people who were tweeting James Moran&#039;s Twitter account with nasty comments. Talk about hypocritical.

I didn&#039;t like Ianto&#039;s death, really out me off the series [seeing as we only just lost Tosh and Owen], but I would never leave negative comments to the writers. They have to write what they think will work, and in the end it will never work for everyone.

Same with this article, if you don&#039;t agree then say so. But to say that it&#039;s a load of crap, or rubbish and not well researched, well really you need to get over yourselfs and not too take it too seriously as the fans you accuse of taking the Ianto death too seriously. Pot calling kettle.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>WoW! All you having a go about this article are as bad as the people who were tweeting James Moran&#8217;s Twitter account with nasty comments. Talk about hypocritical.</p>
<p>I didn&#8217;t like Ianto&#8217;s death, really out me off the series [seeing as we only just lost Tosh and Owen], but I would never leave negative comments to the writers. They have to write what they think will work, and in the end it will never work for everyone.</p>
<p>Same with this article, if you don&#8217;t agree then say so. But to say that it&#8217;s a load of crap, or rubbish and not well researched, well really you need to get over yourselfs and not too take it too seriously as the fans you accuse of taking the Ianto death too seriously. Pot calling kettle.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick</title>
		<link>http://www.endofshow.com/2009/07/12/torchwood-children-of-earth-the-aftermath/comment-page-1/#comment-2633</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Jul 2009 07:03:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.endofshow.com/?p=496#comment-2633</guid>
		<description>I just watched Part 4 and I think DTR and team are absolutely &lt;strong&gt;brilliant!&lt;/strong&gt; Look, the writers had been honest from the first episode in series one that TW members are brilliant in their own rights, but they all die young except Jack who will never die. 

Remember Suzy from the series opener in series 1? She died in series one before Gwen joined the team. Like every loyal TW fans, I was shocked when Owen and Tosh died in series two, but it reinforced the center of the plot - TW member all die young! 

I too, love Ianto&#039;s character and his relationship with Jack, but even the most lovable gay characters shouldn&#039;t be exempt from the fate of all TW members. His character is a mortal who is in love with an &quot;immortal&quot; and they are both in the most dangerous job where people die young. He wasn&#039;t exactly the first character we love from the show that was killed here so the whole comment about the writers being homophobic or changing TW to the American market are simply unfairly. 

You should also note that Ianto stood up against Jack multiple times in S3 that he didn&#039;t like to be hidden in the dark on Jack&#039;s secrets. He also thought that the Jack he knows would rather fight and die than yield to the 456 when it had arrived the first time. It all builds up to the fact that he wanted to be an equal partner in his relationship with Jack. The fact that Ianto is by Jack&#039;s side shows that the iron wall that Jack had been putting up over the years are cracking down. Besides, who else can Jack bring as backup for this mission? Gwen is with child and Rhys is untrained. 

Lastly, I do hope that TW will be back for a series 4. I&#039;m sure the writers will do the show justice when it happen. After all, this is Sci-fi, anything can happen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just watched Part 4 and I think DTR and team are absolutely <strong>brilliant!</strong> Look, the writers had been honest from the first episode in series one that TW members are brilliant in their own rights, but they all die young except Jack who will never die. </p>
<p>Remember Suzy from the series opener in series 1? She died in series one before Gwen joined the team. Like every loyal TW fans, I was shocked when Owen and Tosh died in series two, but it reinforced the center of the plot &#8211; TW member all die young! </p>
<p>I too, love Ianto&#8217;s character and his relationship with Jack, but even the most lovable gay characters shouldn&#8217;t be exempt from the fate of all TW members. His character is a mortal who is in love with an &#8220;immortal&#8221; and they are both in the most dangerous job where people die young. He wasn&#8217;t exactly the first character we love from the show that was killed here so the whole comment about the writers being homophobic or changing TW to the American market are simply unfairly. </p>
<p>You should also note that Ianto stood up against Jack multiple times in S3 that he didn&#8217;t like to be hidden in the dark on Jack&#8217;s secrets. He also thought that the Jack he knows would rather fight and die than yield to the 456 when it had arrived the first time. It all builds up to the fact that he wanted to be an equal partner in his relationship with Jack. The fact that Ianto is by Jack&#8217;s side shows that the iron wall that Jack had been putting up over the years are cracking down. Besides, who else can Jack bring as backup for this mission? Gwen is with child and Rhys is untrained. </p>
<p>Lastly, I do hope that TW will be back for a series 4. I&#8217;m sure the writers will do the show justice when it happen. After all, this is Sci-fi, anything can happen.</p>
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		<title>By: Tempest</title>
		<link>http://www.endofshow.com/2009/07/12/torchwood-children-of-earth-the-aftermath/comment-page-1/#comment-2632</link>
		<dc:creator>Tempest</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Jul 2009 03:04:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.endofshow.com/?p=496#comment-2632</guid>
		<description>Got up to Part 4, and will no longer watch.  I strongly feel the relationship between Jack and Ianto was only developing, becoming interesting.  The abrupt cut-off makes the whole interaction from the previous season play like a plot device, thrown in for effect.  A writer, sitting round the computer typing away, and suddenly thinking &quot;Hm, this would be heartbreaking...let&#039;s do it.&quot;  It made absolutely no sense to me that Jack would face 456 with Ianto right next to him, knowing them from before and what they were capable of.  I think I&#039;m so upset because the writing on this series has never disappointed me before, and to have something this clumsy thrown at me...well, I took it a little personally.  I expected better because up until now, I got better.  For all the Torchwood people responsible, shame on you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Got up to Part 4, and will no longer watch.  I strongly feel the relationship between Jack and Ianto was only developing, becoming interesting.  The abrupt cut-off makes the whole interaction from the previous season play like a plot device, thrown in for effect.  A writer, sitting round the computer typing away, and suddenly thinking &#8220;Hm, this would be heartbreaking&#8230;let&#8217;s do it.&#8221;  It made absolutely no sense to me that Jack would face 456 with Ianto right next to him, knowing them from before and what they were capable of.  I think I&#8217;m so upset because the writing on this series has never disappointed me before, and to have something this clumsy thrown at me&#8230;well, I took it a little personally.  I expected better because up until now, I got better.  For all the Torchwood people responsible, shame on you.</p>
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		<title>By: tiny</title>
		<link>http://www.endofshow.com/2009/07/12/torchwood-children-of-earth-the-aftermath/comment-page-1/#comment-2621</link>
		<dc:creator>tiny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Jul 2009 19:07:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.endofshow.com/?p=496#comment-2621</guid>
		<description>I hadn&#039;t thought of the Greek tragedy angle, but you&#039;re absolutely right. Killing the likeable character only makes it more poignant and therefore you could argue better drama.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hadn&#8217;t thought of the Greek tragedy angle, but you&#8217;re absolutely right. Killing the likeable character only makes it more poignant and therefore you could argue better drama.</p>
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		<title>By: Keith Brannigan</title>
		<link>http://www.endofshow.com/2009/07/12/torchwood-children-of-earth-the-aftermath/comment-page-1/#comment-2618</link>
		<dc:creator>Keith Brannigan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jul 2009 03:57:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.endofshow.com/?p=496#comment-2618</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m afraid you do speak as a minority -- fans are always a tiny minority of the total audience of a show.  As a general rule, only about 1% of the viewers of a show even buy the DVDs, let alone become hardcore fans.

And the general audience -- both the three million who watched the first couple of seasons, and the other three million who turned up now -- are overwhelmingly positive on the show now.  Yes, even after Ianto died.

They&#039;re not going to make the show to appeal to just a few thousand hardcore fans -- these days the Beeb literally can&#039;t afford to spend millions of pounds on a tiny audience.  Without the &quot;newbies&quot;, the show dies anyway.  Simple as.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m afraid you do speak as a minority &#8212; fans are always a tiny minority of the total audience of a show.  As a general rule, only about 1% of the viewers of a show even buy the DVDs, let alone become hardcore fans.</p>
<p>And the general audience &#8212; both the three million who watched the first couple of seasons, and the other three million who turned up now &#8212; are overwhelmingly positive on the show now.  Yes, even after Ianto died.</p>
<p>They&#8217;re not going to make the show to appeal to just a few thousand hardcore fans &#8212; these days the Beeb literally can&#8217;t afford to spend millions of pounds on a tiny audience.  Without the &#8220;newbies&#8221;, the show dies anyway.  Simple as.</p>
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		<title>By: Keith Brannigan</title>
		<link>http://www.endofshow.com/2009/07/12/torchwood-children-of-earth-the-aftermath/comment-page-1/#comment-2617</link>
		<dc:creator>Keith Brannigan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jul 2009 03:49:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.endofshow.com/?p=496#comment-2617</guid>
		<description>But the point is that the backlashing viewers are, in actual terms, a tiny fringe.  The overwhelming share of the audience loved the series...  in the audience-appreciation survey, they&#039;re asked to rate the program with marks out of ten.  An average score of 8/10 means you&#039;re above average, 8.5/10 is considered an excellent result.  Children of Earth averaged 9.0/10.  Pretty much nothing on the air does that -- even Doctor Who only managed it once.  It&#039;s a sign of huge overwhelming audience enthusiasm... even after Ianto died.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But the point is that the backlashing viewers are, in actual terms, a tiny fringe.  The overwhelming share of the audience loved the series&#8230;  in the audience-appreciation survey, they&#8217;re asked to rate the program with marks out of ten.  An average score of 8/10 means you&#8217;re above average, 8.5/10 is considered an excellent result.  Children of Earth averaged 9.0/10.  Pretty much nothing on the air does that &#8212; even Doctor Who only managed it once.  It&#8217;s a sign of huge overwhelming audience enthusiasm&#8230; even after Ianto died.</p>
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		<title>By: Kacey</title>
		<link>http://www.endofshow.com/2009/07/12/torchwood-children-of-earth-the-aftermath/comment-page-1/#comment-2616</link>
		<dc:creator>Kacey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 16:41:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.endofshow.com/?p=496#comment-2616</guid>
		<description>Although I don&#039;t think Torchwood: Children of Earth quite measured up to Series 1 and 2, mostly because it was over so quickly! (I want more!) and this gave it less time for the interpersonal stuff between the action sequences, I believe that the writers, directors, producers, et al did an impressive job of condensing Torchwood for the BBC&#039;s demanded &#039;event&#039; (I am not a fan of TV &#039;events&#039; at all, but that&#039;s another matter). 

Of course, I&#039;m miserable that Ianto is dead and cried for ages, just as I did when Tosh and Owen died, but I do agree with all the writers that they write for the story, NOT to please shippers and fangroups. I don&#039;t think it had anything to do with the Jack/Ianto relationship either - if they wanted to end Torchwood, or start afresh with a new team, it was a logical way to clear the team - get Gwen pregnant so she would have to quit, and kill Ianto so that Jack had no more emotional ties to Earth, thus letting him go.

and for those missing Ianto (including me) we/you are lucky! the writers were originally going to kill him off in the first series but decided to keep him when they saw the character potential! so we should be thankful we got him for as long as we did!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Although I don&#8217;t think Torchwood: Children of Earth quite measured up to Series 1 and 2, mostly because it was over so quickly! (I want more!) and this gave it less time for the interpersonal stuff between the action sequences, I believe that the writers, directors, producers, et al did an impressive job of condensing Torchwood for the BBC&#8217;s demanded &#8216;event&#8217; (I am not a fan of TV &#8216;events&#8217; at all, but that&#8217;s another matter). </p>
<p>Of course, I&#8217;m miserable that Ianto is dead and cried for ages, just as I did when Tosh and Owen died, but I do agree with all the writers that they write for the story, NOT to please shippers and fangroups. I don&#8217;t think it had anything to do with the Jack/Ianto relationship either &#8211; if they wanted to end Torchwood, or start afresh with a new team, it was a logical way to clear the team &#8211; get Gwen pregnant so she would have to quit, and kill Ianto so that Jack had no more emotional ties to Earth, thus letting him go.</p>
<p>and for those missing Ianto (including me) we/you are lucky! the writers were originally going to kill him off in the first series but decided to keep him when they saw the character potential! so we should be thankful we got him for as long as we did!</p>
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		<title>By: Emily</title>
		<link>http://www.endofshow.com/2009/07/12/torchwood-children-of-earth-the-aftermath/comment-page-1/#comment-2615</link>
		<dc:creator>Emily</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jul 2009 17:08:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.endofshow.com/?p=496#comment-2615</guid>
		<description>Torchwood isn&#039;t billed as a tragedy. And good drama is about conflict, not death. Conflicts can arise out of situations other than the death of a beloved character.

And how, exactly, am I wasting your time by commenting on why I won&#039;t stomach another series of Torchwood without Ianto? If you don&#039;t want to read my comments, which you obviously didn&#039;t, then don&#039;t read them. But telling me to grow up because we have a difference of opinion? Who is the immature one now?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Torchwood isn&#8217;t billed as a tragedy. And good drama is about conflict, not death. Conflicts can arise out of situations other than the death of a beloved character.</p>
<p>And how, exactly, am I wasting your time by commenting on why I won&#8217;t stomach another series of Torchwood without Ianto? If you don&#8217;t want to read my comments, which you obviously didn&#8217;t, then don&#8217;t read them. But telling me to grow up because we have a difference of opinion? Who is the immature one now?</p>
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